The continuing saga, just when you think it can’t get any worse, hospital refuses to let person with .49 BAC be admitted, wants us to take this person home, when we don’t, they call the police and we are asked to leave because it is now a “police investigation” and because we were arguing with the doctor – and asked to speak to his supervisor, twice, the supervisor never appeared. I kid you not. I thought it couldn’t get any weirder.
Parts one, two and three go along with this post.
HERE WE GO AGAIN
So, another day, another trip to the Emergency Room. .49 this time. I went to camp, was there to make the call to the ambulance, watched them drag (the totally unconscious person) out of the restroom and put them on the gurney and drive away. Met the partner of the person in the ER, the person told me the nurse said that (the totally unconscious person) would have to go to Tellurian/detox, the partner explained why that was a really bad idea, didn’t seem to make a difference.
GO AHEAD, TAKE THE PERSON HOME
When the nurse comes in the room, she is really excited, she says “Great! You’re here to take (the completely unconscious person) home”
HOLD THE PHONE, WHAT DID SHE JUST SAY?!
When my brain finally comprehended what she said and recovered from the shock I said “Absolutely not, I’m not taking on that liability”.
She was disappointed and left the room.
The partner hunts down another nurse and asks if we can talk to the doctor.
DOCTOR SAYS . . . NO MEDICAL REASON TO ADMIT THIS (TOTALLY UNCONSCIOUS) PERSON
(The order these things happened in might not be quite right, I wasn’t taping or taking notes or anything and it was all very confusing to me . . . )
The doctor came in to tell us that (the totally unconscious person) would not be admitted and that we could take (this totally unconscious person) home. Did he really say the same thing as the nurse?
I’m starting to feel really in over my head. They don’t have this person hooked up to any iv’s or monitors or anything, the person is totally passed out and they want me to take this person home? This ain’t right.
I ask the doctor how I could possibly take (this totally unconscious person) home? How would that work?
The doctor explains that (this totally unconscious person) needs to either go home with us or they will be taken to Tellurian. I explain why that is not a good idea to take this person to Tellurian, but the doctor says it is the only option, they can’t admit the person. I tell the doctor that I really want him to explain this to an advocate for this person and that I am going to call my friend to come here so he can explain this to my friend.
So the doc goes away and comes back a little later and I tell him that I am waiting to hear from a fellow advocate who has a release of information to discuss this person’s issues. My brain is a bit more functioning after the shock, I ask again what the options are. The doctor says we need to get this person to a “safe place”. Again, I say I’m not doing that.
I ask the doctor how I could possibly take (this totally unconscious person) home. The person has woke up a few times now, but hasn’t spoken, only points and makes motions. Then passes out again.
He explains again that (this totally unconscious person) was unresponsive last time, and was a .6 so they could keep (this unconscious person) in the hospital then, but they can’t admit (this unconscious person) every time they get to this point.
I explain that we have a plan to get this person to treatment, that we have been trying to get them into inpatient treatment for the past week or two, that we can’t find any place to take the person and that after the last incident, the person was hospitalized, went to detox, then checked themselves out to go to outpatient treatment intake because there was not impatient treatment but there was no plan and the outpatient treatment didn’t start til 5 days later and there was no plan and (this unconscious person) who is homeless wasn’t at the place Logisticare was scheduled to pick them up and they missed their outpatient treatment and got frustrated with all the failure and here we are.
The doctor seems to be comprehending me, but its not making any difference.
We ask what the other options are. He says detox. We explain why that is a really bad idea in this case. He tells me they have no medical reason to hold this person because they are not showing any signs of withdrawal. He leaves while we wait for my friend to show up.
The person sits up, actually goes to the bathroom, but it takes two people tho assist this person. Then passes out again.
Doc comes back, says he doesn’t have any other answers, and I tell him my friend is on the way and he needs to talk to my friend who has the release of information.
Another nurse comes in, asks if (the passed out person) can sign the consent forms, clearly not. Nurse goes away.
DOC REITERATES, NO MEDICAL REASON TO KEEP (THIS TOTALLY UNCONSCIOUS PERSON) IN THE HOSPITAL
My friend gets here and the doctor re-explains that we are still in the same place. He says that our options are detox or we take this person home. My friend asks a bunch of questions.
Do you know this person is suicidal, and you can’t keep (this totally unconscious person)?
Well, the problem with that is the social workers won’t talk to anyone until after they sober up. (This passed out person) has to go to detox and they can bring (this passed out person) back to the hospital in the morning for evaluation.
My friend explains why Tellurian is a bad idea, asks what the options are, we get the same answers.
My friend asks to speak to the doctor’s supervisor.
The doctor says that he will contact the person to come down to speak with us.
(THIS TOTALLY UNCONSCIOUS PERSON) CAN ONLY BE ADMITTED WITH A .5 BAC
Nurse comes in, not the person the doctor is supposed to be getting – more questions:
My friend asks .49 BAC is nearly dead, why can’t you admit (this passed out person)?
We don’t admit someone until they are a .5.
But its really close, isn’t that good enough?
Well, really, its a .488, so its not that close. We round down.
What?
Well, we round down, but it does depend upon how you look at it.
But that is nearly dead, how can that be?
That’s just the way we do it, alcohol affects people differently and because (this passed out person) had a .6 in the past, this isn’t really that high.
The nurse explains that if we don’t take the person, the person will go to detox and the person will be carefully watched there.
We laugh and ask how she knows.
She tells us she hasn’t ever been there but assumes that is what they do.
My friend explains his experience, having been there for various reasons, and how it differs from what she explains, I tell her she shouldn’t assume that and to forgive us for arguing, but the services many people think exist are not as they assume.
I still seem to be in some kind of shock, I can’t comprehend this very well about what is expected. Nurse leaves, my friend and I look at each other bewildered, waiting for the supervisor to come back.
The passed out person is starting to show signs of comprehending what we are talking about. I attempt to ask if Tellurian would be so bad for one night, each time I try to ask, this person just starts whimpering. Still not much verbal communication.
DOCTOR COMES BACK
No supervisor. Says he talked to the hospitalization people again, we are still in the same spot. We take the person or the person goes to detox. We ask more questions about what it takes to get the person admitted.
Doctor says there needs to be signs of withdrawal, we ask if that happens in a few hours if we can bring the person back. He doesn’t really answer.
The partner is getting agitated saying that the person can’t go to Tellurian. I’m saying we can’t take the person (lawyer brain can’t get past the liability issue).
We explain the plan is to talk to Marshfield in the morning, and just staying here for one night would really help, because if the person goes to Tellurian they will be out in the morning and we may miss our opportunity window where this person is agreeing to go to inpatient treatment.
He gets a call, says it is the person we are waiting for, he takes the call in hallway and comes back and tells us they aren’t changing their minds.
We are grasping at straws, asking any question we can think of.
My friend asks if the person can we can just carry the person down to St. Mary’s instead.
The doctor visibly winces at that suggestion. While he seemed to want us to take the person, the thought of us carrying the person out of there to another emergency room got him and he says “That’s not right”
We ask if he understands that this person is homeless. He knows.
We ask him what he thinks we would do with this person if we took them, put them in a tent? He agrees this isn’t a good idea.
We ask him what happens if this person gets released and drinks more, what do we do? When do we bring this person back? We don’t have medical training, I know I don’t know when is time to call the ambulance if that wasn’t the time. My friend finally asks if we can just get a body bag. (Second person to suggest that yesterday)
We continue to go over the same things with the doctor and the suggestion that we carry the person from Meriter to St. Mary’s has really irritated him and the body bag comment clearly irked him as well. He is getting agitated with us for continuing to press that this person be admitted, at one point, he asks why we are blaming him. We did explain that we weren’t blaming him, the system is infuriating and no matter what we do, we haven’t been able to get the right programs to take this person because the person has medicare/madicaid they can’t get in inpatient here and the outpatient clearly didn’t work. He’s just annoyed with us now. Says he will call his supervisor to come down again . . .
We go back in, waiting for the supervisor, starting to talk with the person now, we are dumbfounded about what to do next, but are talking about the failings of the system. The person decides they need to go to the restroom again so we call the nurse and leave the room. As we are leaving the room, there are two police officers coming down the hallway.
THIS IS NOW A POLICE INVESTIGATION
I lean against the wall in the hallway and wait for everyone to leave the room and it becomes clear the police are coming to this room – not the supervisor that we asked to speak to. We ask what is going on, one police officer puffs out his chest and says “You need to leave, this is now a police investigation”
WHAT?!
This is now a police investigation. We ask what he means, he says the police now need to decide if this person has to go to detox.
We explain the hospital has decided there was no medical reason to hold the person, that they have asked us to take the person home, so what decision is there to be made.
They say that they are the ones who determine who goes to detox.
We ask if they have the medical training to decide that since the doctor is telling us something different.
A third officer walks up – they are telling us we need to leave because we were arguing with the doctor.
We explain that we were advocating for the best medical attention for this person, we were not arguing with them, we were advocating for the best care for the person.
They insist we go out in the lobby and wait, I ask for my purse which is still in the room.
They ask me what it looks like, I smile and tell them it is the hemp purse sitting on the chair and wonder if they quickly search it before I get it back – doesn’t matter to me, but the curtains are closed and I can’t see what they do.
They hand me my purse, and I reach in and turn on my tape recorder, this is the rest of the conversation. I didn’t feel comfortable taping conversations with medical professionals, but when the police are telling us this is a police investigation and that we need to leave – I turned it on without a second thought. I can’t use it because it talks about details of the person’s medical condition, but I have an accurate recording of what happens from here on out, instead of just my memory.
POLICE CONVERSATION
The audio starts with my friend explaining that the hospital won’t take the person because they have a .488, not a .5
Cop 3: Quite honestly, that is a really scary level to have.
We express agreement.
Cop 3: A very scary level to have.
Friend: This person was a .6 a week and a half ago.
Me: They wanted us to take this person home. They wanted me to just take this person home. And I said no, I’m not going to do that, that’s insane, right? I’m not going to take on that liability.
Cop 3: Yeah, here’s the unfortunate part about our job here.
Me: We’re not here to argue with you.
Cop 3: I signed up to be a police officer and but I find out I’ve also signed up to be . . .
Friend: A counselor,
Cop 3: a social worker, in alcohol related issues. In fact, state law ties my hands and makes me deal with this, I can’t say have fun, see you later (we agree), by law I have to come in and deal with this stuff, unfortunately, so, what I have come to believe and practice is that if somebody is unsafe to be by themselves or needs medical attention to come off of the high drunk that they are on, we need to get them someplace.
Friend: Um, hmmm, that is why we called.
Cop 3: Right, there are times where they can go home and they can be watched and there are times when they can’t and that is what we are here to determine. We have to . .
Me: Earlier they were trying to get me to take her, so why is there a determination to be made now?
Cop 3: The thing is that determination comes down to law enforcement because we got called here.
Friend: But you’re not the medical experts.
Cop 3: That’s why I don’t want to be a part of this, BING! you got it! (We laugh) Hello, we’re all on the same page now.
Friend: Moan, heavy sigh . . .
silent pause . . .
Cop 3: But, what we do is, instantly make sure that some other medical person deal with them, so we will take custody if we so deem necessary and take them to Tellurian detox, which is really not too far from where you guys are staying.
Friend: I know, I go there every day, I go to meetings there.
Cop 3: That is kind of the whole deal.
Friend: How do we find out where this person is going, this person has signed a waiver for me to, you know a confidentiality waiver.
Cop 3: Do you have that with you?
Friend: I don’t, its on file at detox. And the county.
Cop 3: If this person goes to detox, then you can call them and say . . .
Friend: But how do we know if this person goes to detox (in the past, the police have told us someone is going to detox and they end up in jail instead)
Cop 3: I guess if you see us walking out the door with this person, then that is where we are going.
Cop 1: This person will be going to detox.
Cop 3: And then you can call them and let them know of your confidentiality waiver and inquire from there.
Pause . . . (I can’t imagine what our faces looked like to cause the cop to ask the next question)
Cop 3: It seems, are you all still unhappy with what is happening here?
Friend: Yeah, very unhappy.
Cop 3: We got called to you.
Friend: Not with you necessarily, I’ve seen him (cop 1) handle drunk people before and he’s very aggressive and I don’t appreciate that. How he handles it, he triggers people,
Cop 3: Ok.
Friend: That officer right there (happens to be the only officer of the three in the room with the person), and I’m afraid for this person’s life.
Cop 3: Are you afraid that we are going to kill this person (he says with a very pained tone of voice, I believe he is being very sincere and kind with us)
Friend: I wouldn’t say that, I’m just afraid of triggering her.
Cop 3: Turns to the partner and says “Are you ok with me, this is the kind of stare down I get from people that . . .
Partner of person: I just think you are in the wrong.
Cop 3: You guys called me.
Partner of person: I didn’t call you, that my xxx in there. I didn’t call you.
Cop 3: We got called in to your lives earlier today, I was doing something else.
Partner of person: No, we called an ambulance, I didn’t call the cops.
Cop 3: The ambulance and the police kind of come hand in hand sometimes.
(ARGHHH!!!!!! That is why people don’t call the ambulance, even when needed . . . . GRRRRRRR)
Cop 3: We’re here to help, weren’t not here to ruin someone’s life, ok?
Partner: The person is deathly afraid of being in detox.
Cop 3: If this person went home with you tonight and this person died, you’d be right on our door saying we are negligent.
Partner: No
Cop 3: Yes you would. We are here doing the best we can with what we got. I’ve been to detox 5 million times in my career, they are all very nice people, but they are treated well . . .
Friend: I beg to differ, I’ve been there many times, including with people
Me: And it doesn’t help, clearly, because we end up going through the same circles again and again and again
Friend: We’re looking for solutions, not . . .
Me: Solutions don’t happen
Cop 3: Why, because there are so many people that all we can do, and that costs that place $500 a night per person to take care of them. So the deal is they are doing their best to keep people from dying out on the streets
Me: This person wants to go to treatment, they want to go to treatment. We tried all last week to get this person in some place and this person can’t get in anywhere because this person has medicare
Friend: And medicaid
Me: This is one of the craziest things I have ever heard Hope Haven won’t take this person, so the only option is for this person to go to Marshfield. So we are trying to get this person in there. If you take this person to detox, this person will get upset and check themselves out and then we have lost this opportunity. So what we are doing here is hurting this person’s chances of success by taking this person to detox, which is why we wanted the hospital to keep this person. We know how this person will react to detox. And they (the hospital) say there is no medical reason to keep this persons
Cop 3: The hospital won’t, they just won’t.
Me: So the hospital won’t keep this person because there is no medical reason but you’re going to take this person because there is a medical reason and what is going to happen is . . .
Cop 3: And here’s the thing, if it comes down to blaming law enforcement for this whole problem, I’m here and I’ll take the blame and I’m ok with that because all we can do.
Friend: We’re not blaming law enforcement.
Me: All we are looking for is to fix the problem.
Cop 3: I told you, we are tied by law how to deal with this. It’s not like we can come in and with one person be one way and with another person be another way.
Friend: It’s pretty random when they decide if people stay here.
Cop 3: In the hospital or in detox.
Friend: Hospital, it’s toally random, xxx came in at .37 and hasn’t drank in 3.5 years and is active in recovery and x stayed.
Cop 2: The reason is because this person has been in treatment and when in treatment refuses to listen to what the doctors say. (So THAT is what is in the file that is causing this insanity!) So that is why they are refusing this person.
Friend: No, that is not what they said
Cop 2: That is what they just told me.
Friend: This is what we are saying, we are being told a lot of things, people are saying different things.
Me: This person checked themselves out of detox (to go to intake for outpatient treatment), and now you are taking this person to detox.
Cop 2: The whole problem is we’re not going to (I don’t know what he said) the whole detox thing. The person will be there for 12 hours and then
Friend: They will release this person. And send this person back out to do it again.
Me: That is what we are afraid of.
Friend: Think about what you just said. Think about how that sounds to us.
Cop 2: I know, and the problem is I can only do what I can do and if the hospital is saying we’re not going to take this person, they are a private organization (Meriter) and I have no . . .
Me: Can you just take this person over to St. Mary’s?
Cop 2: They are going to say the same thing because they are going to call this hospital and ask about the treatment facility and how that went, so . . . unless you guys are going to be responsible for this person and ensure this person is not going to drink or hurt themselves . . .
Friend: This person is an alcoholic, we can’t.
Cop 2: Which is why this person is going to end up going to detox. The person is a .488, which is EXTREMELY intoxicated.
Friend: Dangerously intoxicated.
Cop 2: Yes.
Friend: The person’s not even on iv or hooked up to anything.
Cop 2: I would be in a coma at that point.
Me: Exactly, and the hospital is saying they don’t have any medical reasons?
Cop 2: Well, I have seen people at sixes before.
Friend and we: This person just was!
Cop 2: So, that is where we are going tonight. We’re not going to be here too long, we have three people tied up on this and there is six working on the entire south side. I know its not what you want, its not the answer you’re looking for, but that is the answer that is going to have to work for tonight. And from there, if you want to contact the hospital, try to come back when this person is sober and they are more likely to let you in.
Discussion about back packs and bags and personal belongings and where they go. Introductions, exchange of cards. Yeah, I’m Brenda Konkel, cop says “I know the name . . .”
Friend: We have a really good working relationship with (another cop)
Me: We’re not blaming you, its the system.
Cop 3: Yeah, I’ve been here before.
Me: We’re just saying the system is not working for this person and its not working towards success.
Cop 3: Unfortunately I have been here when the husband brings a wife in, she’s totally gassed out of her mind, she wants treatment, hospital won’t take her, we get called, we evaluate her, we can’t take her because she is not incapacitated by alcohol, so the husband in tears has to take her right back home and the whole thing is a failure and the thing is, there is nothing I can do, unfortunately, I got stuck there because of the law. The law puts law enforcement right in there.
Friend: Yeah.
Me: I know.
Cop 3: I wish we had a nice big place and we could bring people and we could bring people there.
Friend: That is what we are working on.
pause
Friend: Does this person have to be cuffed?
Cop 1 or 2, I think 2: Well, this person is not happy right now, so probably.
Me: See, that is what we were trying to tell you.
Cop: This person was giving the partner the f-bombs so . . .
Friend: They always do that
Cop: Not happy, this is the one thing this person did not want.
Me: Exactly.
Cop 3: Do you guys have a ride back to where you are going?
We say yes, cop walks us out.
Cop 3: Again, thank you for your cooperation, I appreciate the fact that you are really not on board with this, but I also appreciate that you are not making a big issue of it.
Friend: Well, we have a big issue with it.
Me: Just not with you. (Giggle)
Cop 3: Again, I don’t know how to make you happy, I wish I could, I wish there was something I could say or do. But like I said, we are stuck in this.
Friend: Will this person automatically be kicked out in 12 hours?
Cop 3; They usually will bring them down to a safe level, .00 is what they say. And then they will leave. It depends, if this person has DTs or gets totally sick, they will watch this person to see this person comes out of it ok, but they will not throw this person out if they are DTing.
Ok, thanks, sorry this is how it had to end up.
We stand there, watch the person stumble out and get put in the cop car . . .
INSANE!!!!! It’s the only word I can use to sum it up. INSANE!!!!
You never do explain why all the experts are wrong about taking the drunk to Tellurian, or why Meriter Hospital should become a drunk tank. Have you more experience dealing with chronic alcoholism? Training?
I can’t due to confidentiality reasons, all I can say is it is very traumatic . .. luckily, it wasn’t as bad as we thought, but they have been released from detox . . . instead of agreeing to a plan that requires them to stay in detox for a few days, just so they can get out of there . . . still working on a plan, still wants treatment, just refuses to go through Tellurian and as long as this person refuses, nothing changes. Looking into other options.
And Meriter shouldn’t become a drunk tank, but, uh, .49! No medical treatment necessary? I’ve seen this person at .3 something and they needed medical treatment. The cops agreed they couldn’t be released to us because they needed medical treatment. They wanted to release this person to me while they were unconscious!!!! Seriously!!!!!
Dave- I have more personal experience and training than most of the medical “professionals” at Meriter hospital. I have been there with someone close to me several times (who was raped in detox by another patient) and they are either morally judging the individual or stating that their hands are tied. Given the severity and prevalence of addiction and alcoholism, it’s imperative that we start viewing this as a public health issue, funding treatment options, and creating a dialog between city and county officials and treatment providers to get a handle on this instead of simply labeling these individuals as criminals or sending them to jail to “sober up” just because it is the only option. We are in a budget crisis and are just throwing away money by not acknowledging this issue. Brenda’s story is only one of many.
People make their own choices, Brenda. Sometimes, they don’t make the “right” choices. You are simply not going to help someone who does not want to be helped, unless you want to try involuntary commitment. For which, I doubt you have standing.
Brenda- I’m rereading your interaction with doctors and nurses and it is complete deja vu.
Dave, please read my comments above. Your comments indicate you do not understand this type of situation. What Brenda and Cop 3 describes is very common. Alcoholism is recognized as a medical condition and when the disease progresses to the point that it has here, it doesn’t simply come down to choices..
The individual *wanted* help. Detox is a horrible place for many and the process is counterproductive for the treatment process.
And you want to help that individual, right? I see 14 alcoholism treatment centers listed in Madison here (take your pick). http://alcoholism.about.com/od/tx_madison/Madison_Wisconsin_Treatment_Centers.htm
If you want to up the ante, there is Rogers in Oconomowoc and Hazelden in Minnesota and Betty Ford in California. Take up a collection; but the individual has to WANT to go there!
Those are not 14 individual inpatient programs. Some are listings of other programs at the same facility. They do not just accept all cases and many of them are VERY and prohibitively expensive.
As the blog said, this individual WANTED treatment! The problem is that the nature of this illness, as with other mental health conditions, is that success requires the process to be seemless. They need to get help immediately after they express interest in it or it does not work. There is not time to wait months to raise money or get approvals or wait for a bed (because most of the facilities you listed are often at capacity).
As I said, I have worked with a number of people in this same situation on a personal level. I don’t understand why so many people don’t understand that it’s not just about WANTING treatment. It’s about ACCESS to treatment.
Mr. Blaska, I support your right to Free Speech. I assume by your need to provoke and argue that you have a level of aspergers which makes your social skills inept and your need to argue for the sake of argument rather than resolution part of your neuro wiring, therefore, we can’t hold that against you. I don’t drink. I don’t do illegal drugs, but I don’t feel superior. The “drunk” you refer to get your fix in your neuro wiring has a chemical illness. He also could die if he suddenly would stop drinking without medical help.
Your need for attention on treating an adult who was not aborted as trash is honest about your politics and life ethic. For that I am grateful and will continue to treat your writings and ramblings of disrespect as a sign of your aspergers with perhaps a touch of OCD and I will not lcall you a lunatic.
I will say that the man Brenda Konkel speaks of is physically ill. And your treatment of the addiction is revealing of your life ethic.
Thank you for your bold revelations of who you are. I appreciate your honesty and do not hold your lack of social skills against you.
Perhaps you should hear your brother, Governor Chris Christie speak on addiction, he does so with sincerity. Now by writing that suggestion I give you the opportunity to ignore the point that you treat a diseased adult unaborted fetus as a game to provoke others.
Again, it’s your lack of social skills.
Chris Christie speaks on addiction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb5u-pUUqnE
“There isn’t time … to raise money or get approvals … ?” Why not? Is the individual deceased?
“Success requires the process to be seamless” (spelled with an “a” btw)? “They need to get help immediately after they express interest in it or it does not work”? (What, they change their mind after a couple minutes?)
Where are you getting this stuff? This is pure hooey. What makes you the expert? That you’ve “worked with a number of people.”
I think I’ve done pretty well for a mentally ill person. Perhaps I am a savant; certainly, I can recognize a meddler when I see one. Perhaps that is my gift. I see a meddler with a messianic complex. Someone who knows better than everyone else, including medical science. Including professional social workers. Including the housing industry. (BTW: He will not “die if he suddenly stops drinking. (!))
As for speshulkay’s comments below: yes, alcoholism treatment is a legitimate social/political/economic issue. But the person Brenda is trying to help is not a cause, he needs treatment in the world as it exists today. Throwing a tantrum in a hospital corridor isn’t going to help him — presuming that the help is actually wanted.
Dear Mr. Blaska
I am not diagnosing you; I am merely treating you like an alive piece of literature you behavior in this is unkind. To call someone a “drunk” when it is a disease puts us all back.
You call, Brenda Konkel, a meddler with a Messianiac complex? You reduce her advocacy to a “tantrum”? Clearly you are not a Christian, perhaps too above it all because in that belief system Jesus teaches that what you do for the least of humanity you do for the divine.
I would agree that Ms. Konkel is working out some personal issues, perhaps the trauma of homelessness issues as a child, one does not get over that, she can work through that. But your unkindness leaves me without words. I like your writing. You write well. I have always defended that you write well, case and point: when the Isthmus dropped you to sound one dimensional with the mushy writing of Dave Cieslewicz, I protested.
But you are wrong that someone who is as intoxicated on a daily basis as this subject appears to be would not die from sudden withdrawal. May I give you the name, Amy Winehouse, she died because she suddenly stopped drinking. When these chronic alcoholics go to detox they are given meds and are watched for the withdrawal of a chronic alcoholic. People die from suddenly stopping drinking so you are wrong in that. No, not all people, but chronic alcoholics do die.
At issue is that you do not have to demean a person who is struggling with Alcohol depdendency by calling the person a drunk. And if you have something to say about your perceived view that the secular Brenda Konkel has a messianic complex, say it directly.
For my part, I should have written that people with Aspergers or OCD can recieve social skills training. But no where did I diagnose you, I treated you like a piece of literature, a antagonist whose behavior attacks the protagonist.
This is her process. Let her have it. Cleary the walls in the system aren’t taking any hurt from her. I have to wonder if they are purposely denying this human being help because of her being involved.
I do not think Joe Parisi has compassion. I think he is running for Governor. His actions leave me speechless.
Your writing is fine, but instead of antagonizing her why don’t you just say it directly.
But you are an piece of literature.
I should put that on my book dust jacket or obituary: “Blaska was an piece of literature.” Ms. Doyle, pls understand that I do not doubt anyone’s sincerity here. But you may have hit upon the truth, however unintentionally, when you speculated that your alcoholic’s problem may be exacerbated by Brenda’s involvement. That is, in fact, my point. She is doing more harm than good.
This is my last post on this topic, I promise. But you needed to hear from someone outside your comfortable liberal echo chamber.
Before I leave you to your own devices — and I do wish good results — I need to make two points.
First, your friend/victim/whatever is a drunk, a sot, an alchie. You cannot pretty it up — for his sake. He cannot be allowed to blame others for his predicament. Yes, he needs help, but only if he acknowledges — not just momentarily — that he is a hopeless addict. A gutter rat. A stinking drunk — but that there is a better way — that he can’t go any lower, except the grave. But that there is a way out. Lesser men than he have done it.
Good luck.
About Amy Winehouse. This is not a matter of speculation — and your urban myth that one dies from “suddenly stopping drinking” is a new one on me. And it frankly calls into question your supposed expertise in alcoholism.
The woman drank herself to death, plain & simple. “The report released on 26 October 2011 explained that Winehouse’s blood alcohol content was 416 mg per 100ml (0.416%) at the time of her death.” You can look it up.
FWIW – When I talked to the nurse at the inpatient treatment center this person got in to, they told us to have the person continue drinking in moderation to avoid seizure – just not to over do it. Unfortunately, the worst thing you can give an alcoholic is the green light to drink. Looks like another trip to ER or detox again tonight.
I don’t agree the person needs to get into treatment the moment they express interest. ‘Express interest’ is not enough of a commitment by itself to succeed. Access is good but why should everyone shuffle everything around the alcoholic? Most alcoholics need to learn not to get immediate gratification. Often, having to wait makes them work harder because they know they won’t get into treatment everytime they say they want to quit.
If someone won’t go to treatment because they had to spend a night at Detox, you’re pissing in the wind. That person is not going to be successful at rehab. Excuses like that are a clear sign that person isn’t ready to be helped. And I don’t need a lecture about addiction because I know how it goes. We certainly need more compassionate and effective treatment available to addicts, but that will not help people who refuse treatment. Meanwhile, your friend who doesn’t want treatment tied up police and medical resources from people who needed and wanted their help. When is the last time anyone died at Detox from poor medical care? It’s the place where drunks go unless they might die of which was not the case with this person for whom it appears this is a fairly regular blood alcohol level.
And may god forgive me for agreeing ever so slightly with Dave Blaska.